<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!-- generator="wordpress/1.5.1-alpha" -->
<rss version="2.0" 
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/">
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: &#8230; do historians do?</title>
	<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/</link>
	<description>A working notebook</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha</generator>

	<item>
		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-2601</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:40:40 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-2601</guid>
					<description>This is really weird. This post is from about 2 years ago and yet it's now on the top of the blog in 2008. Strange.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This is really weird. This post is from about 2 years ago and yet it&#8217;s now on the top of the blog in 2008. Strange.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-930</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Sep 2006 13:18:57 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-930</guid>
					<description>Cool. Thanks.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Cool. Thanks.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Noelle</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-925</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:33:45 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-925</guid>
					<description>wow i was looking on the internet to write an essayon 'what historians do' and i read all yr thoughts and comments it really inpired me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>wow i was looking on the internet to write an essayon &#8216;what historians do&#8217; and i read all yr thoughts and comments it really inpired me.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Mike</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-518</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:06:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-518</guid>
					<description>Hey there,

As an aspiring &quot;amateur&quot; historian myself (a full year into the research I have yet to even begin actually writing anything about STO), and an old acquaintance of Bob Helms, I liked this post.  I especially liked the anecdote from Linebaugh, and it makes me think that there is a general tendency in the left to look more carefully at the experiences and lessons of revolutionaries in other places (and times) than in our own communities.  I'm not sure this is a bad thing either; the perspective gained may more than compensate for the lack of applicability.  In this vein, I spend more time thinking about STO than I do about any currently existing revolutionary group, and I know significantly more about anarchism in Venezuela than I do about anarchism here in Chicago.  At the same time, this stuff can devolve into a total waste of time.  An ex-STO'er said offered this self-criticism during an interview:  &quot;We were experts on Iran, but knew nothing about Cleveland!&quot;

Anyway, two of my favorite history books:
P. Novick, That Noble Dream (a history of the history profession in the US, viewed through the critical lens of &quot;the objectivity question&quot;)
W. Cronon, Nature's Metropolis (a fantastic assessment of the relationship between Chicago's development during the 19th century and its environmental surroundings)

Still liking your blog...

Solidarity,
Mike
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hey there,</p>
	<p>As an aspiring &#8220;amateur&#8221; historian myself (a full year into the research I have yet to even begin actually writing anything about STO), and an old acquaintance of Bob Helms, I liked this post.  I especially liked the anecdote from Linebaugh, and it makes me think that there is a general tendency in the left to look more carefully at the experiences and lessons of revolutionaries in other places (and times) than in our own communities.  I&#8217;m not sure this is a bad thing either; the perspective gained may more than compensate for the lack of applicability.  In this vein, I spend more time thinking about STO than I do about any currently existing revolutionary group, and I know significantly more about anarchism in Venezuela than I do about anarchism here in Chicago.  At the same time, this stuff can devolve into a total waste of time.  An ex-STO&#8217;er said offered this self-criticism during an interview:  &#8220;We were experts on Iran, but knew nothing about Cleveland!&#8221;</p>
	<p>Anyway, two of my favorite history books:<br />
P. Novick, That Noble Dream (a history of the history profession in the US, viewed through the critical lens of &#8220;the objectivity question&#8221;)<br />
W. Cronon, Nature&#8217;s Metropolis (a fantastic assessment of the relationship between Chicago&#8217;s development during the 19th century and its environmental surroundings)</p>
	<p>Still liking your blog&#8230;</p>
	<p>Solidarity,<br />
Mike
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-418</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2006 19:24:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-418</guid>
					<description>Thanks Hollowentry. Thompson's been on my list for a really long time. That book's just so long, though, it's intimidating. As for Marx, I spent several years on my own where I tried to read v1 of Capital. I was put off by the early sections, and by the aura of majesty around that book. I think I started 4 or 5 times and never got beyond 100 pages if that. I finally got the advice to read the ending first and that did the trick. What struck me was all the history in the book, and how much he's really quoting from many other sources. (It makes me wonder at the common academic treatment of Marx, to emphasize terms and problems from the very beginning of the book and leave most of the rest.) Some of his descriptions of the 'bloody legislation' made me talk out loud while reading it, &quot;oh my god...&quot; and the like. 
take care,
Nate
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks Hollowentry. Thompson&#8217;s been on my list for a really long time. That book&#8217;s just so long, though, it&#8217;s intimidating. As for Marx, I spent several years on my own where I tried to read v1 of Capital. I was put off by the early sections, and by the aura of majesty around that book. I think I started 4 or 5 times and never got beyond 100 pages if that. I finally got the advice to read the ending first and that did the trick. What struck me was all the history in the book, and how much he&#8217;s really quoting from many other sources. (It makes me wonder at the common academic treatment of Marx, to emphasize terms and problems from the very beginning of the book and leave most of the rest.) Some of his descriptions of the &#8216;bloody legislation&#8217; made me talk out loud while reading it, &#8220;oh my god&#8230;&#8221; and the like.<br />
take care,<br />
Nate
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: hollowentry</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-417</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2006 17:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-417</guid>
					<description>on history writing (I'll just mention academic stuff, but what you're doing is great history):
Felix Gilbert, Varieties of History
-an old-school but excellent selection of historians on history.
Joan Wallach Scott, Gender and the Politics of History
-great historian.
EP Thompson, The Making of the English Working Class
-It's as much about challenging an the academic 'enormous condescension of history' vis a vis the working class as it is a landmark study of history from below. I still get goosebumps when reading some passages.
Pierre Nora, Realms of Memory.
-no sir, I don't like it, but it's an interesting intersection of academic public history and statecraft.
Derrida.
Marx.
Samir Amin.
Zinn.
Anything that reveals something true about people and society.

The rabbit hole with historiography is that each text on historical writing, is itself located among other historical events, as well as the institional structures of the academy. But then, acknowledging and examining these historical connections to academic production is just good history...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>on history writing (I&#8217;ll just mention academic stuff, but what you&#8217;re doing is great history):<br />
Felix Gilbert, Varieties of History<br />
-an old-school but excellent selection of historians on history.<br />
Joan Wallach Scott, Gender and the Politics of History<br />
-great historian.<br />
EP Thompson, The Making of the English Working Class<br />
-It&#8217;s as much about challenging an the academic &#8216;enormous condescension of history&#8217; vis a vis the working class as it is a landmark study of history from below. I still get goosebumps when reading some passages.<br />
Pierre Nora, Realms of Memory.<br />
-no sir, I don&#8217;t like it, but it&#8217;s an interesting intersection of academic public history and statecraft.<br />
Derrida.<br />
Marx.<br />
Samir Amin.<br />
Zinn.<br />
Anything that reveals something true about people and society.</p>
	<p>The rabbit hole with historiography is that each text on historical writing, is itself located among other historical events, as well as the institional structures of the academy. But then, acknowledging and examining these historical connections to academic production is just good history&#8230;
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-401</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2006 01:52:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-401</guid>
					<description>Thanks Hollowentry, I appreciate it. Thanks for the recs as well. 
I've got Ginzburg's &quot;The Judge and the Historian&quot;, but haven't read it yet. Chabert speaks highly of his Cheese and the Worms, and I take the Colonel's recommendations very seriously. Can you recommend some other stuff, and some stuff on history writing (both thinking about it and practicing it)? I'm a total neophyte, but I'm very interested in all of this. There's a few amateur historians in my IWW branch, one guy went up to a nearby mountain range to their local history center and came back with all kinds of cool union and working class history stuff, including photos of striking miners from 1914 - several of whom were clearly under 13. There's also some great marching photos, people dressed up really well carrying banners, and lots of kids in the march too. Powerful stuff. It's also good to know about in part as a corrective for people like myself who are excited by the EZLN, events in Argentina, Italy in the 70s, France in the late 60s, many of the reference points are to stuff that happened elsewhere which can lead to a sort of &quot;if only I was from X other locale...&quot;. Knowing about exciting events more close to home helps prevent that. Peter Linebaugh commented on this when he spoke at the IWW centenary last june - he said he went to Europe to find socialism, then in a reading group with Solidarity (UK) he met Feruccio Gambino who had stopped by on a trip from Italy to Detroit, where he was going to meet Martin Glaberman. Linebaugh said it was a big surprise to him that someone from Europe was looking to the US. That really resonated with me. Gotta run, I'm finishing cooking dinner. 
take care,
Nate
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks Hollowentry, I appreciate it. Thanks for the recs as well.<br />
I&#8217;ve got Ginzburg&#8217;s &#8220;The Judge and the Historian&#8221;, but haven&#8217;t read it yet. Chabert speaks highly of his Cheese and the Worms, and I take the Colonel&#8217;s recommendations very seriously. Can you recommend some other stuff, and some stuff on history writing (both thinking about it and practicing it)? I&#8217;m a total neophyte, but I&#8217;m very interested in all of this. There&#8217;s a few amateur historians in my IWW branch, one guy went up to a nearby mountain range to their local history center and came back with all kinds of cool union and working class history stuff, including photos of striking miners from 1914 - several of whom were clearly under 13. There&#8217;s also some great marching photos, people dressed up really well carrying banners, and lots of kids in the march too. Powerful stuff. It&#8217;s also good to know about in part as a corrective for people like myself who are excited by the EZLN, events in Argentina, Italy in the 70s, France in the late 60s, many of the reference points are to stuff that happened elsewhere which can lead to a sort of &#8220;if only I was from X other locale&#8230;&#8221;. Knowing about exciting events more close to home helps prevent that. Peter Linebaugh commented on this when he spoke at the IWW centenary last june - he said he went to Europe to find socialism, then in a reading group with Solidarity (UK) he met Feruccio Gambino who had stopped by on a trip from Italy to Detroit, where he was going to meet Martin Glaberman. Linebaugh said it was a big surprise to him that someone from Europe was looking to the US. That really resonated with me. Gotta run, I&#8217;m finishing cooking dinner.<br />
take care,<br />
Nate
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: hollowentry</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-400</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2006 01:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-400</guid>
					<description>Hi Nate,

I love this post. Great approach to wobbly history. History the academic discipline is indeed often taught as if its subject is a thing that happened rather than a method, a discipline, subject to constraints. That stuff often ends up in upper-year courses on historiography (the history and method of historical writing). I think this bifurcation is central to the sleight-of-hand in the discipline. But there are historians who don't artificially divide their method and research from the events they study (which I think serves the defensive interests of professionalizing the discipline and rendering it beyond outside criticism).

I think university students are so programmed by this sleight-of-hand that they feel they are walking off the edge of a map when they learn of the contingencies and structures of historical writing itself.

There is so much phenomenal historical writing. I really like Carlo Ginzburg who often foregrounds his own sources as part of his narrative. If you can read French, check out Mohammed Harbi's Une vie debout: memoire politique. He's one of the best historians of Algeria, and was quite active himself in the Revolution. His memoir is a great mix of biographical, social and political (and empirical).  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hi Nate,</p>
	<p>I love this post. Great approach to wobbly history. History the academic discipline is indeed often taught as if its subject is a thing that happened rather than a method, a discipline, subject to constraints. That stuff often ends up in upper-year courses on historiography (the history and method of historical writing). I think this bifurcation is central to the sleight-of-hand in the discipline. But there are historians who don&#8217;t artificially divide their method and research from the events they study (which I think serves the defensive interests of professionalizing the discipline and rendering it beyond outside criticism).</p>
	<p>I think university students are so programmed by this sleight-of-hand that they feel they are walking off the edge of a map when they learn of the contingencies and structures of historical writing itself.</p>
	<p>There is so much phenomenal historical writing. I really like Carlo Ginzburg who often foregrounds his own sources as part of his narrative. If you can read French, check out Mohammed Harbi&#8217;s Une vie debout: memoire politique. He&#8217;s one of the best historians of Algeria, and was quite active himself in the Revolution. His memoir is a great mix of biographical, social and political (and empirical).
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Jon</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-366</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 17:18:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-366</guid>
					<description>Braudel's good.  I don't know what Rancière says about him.  But he's hardly your typical empiricist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Braudel&#8217;s good.  I don&#8217;t know what Rancière says about him.  But he&#8217;s hardly your typical empiricist.
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
	<item>
		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-363</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2008/06/16/do-historians-do/#comment-363</guid>
					<description>That's interesting Mark. Braudel's on the infinite booklist, but I think I'm going to be less keen than you, due to some critical remarks I've read by Ranciere on him. As far as I can tell in my cursory reading Ranciere's not a keen on social scientific historical facts. I'll see if I can locate any e-copies of his relevant work. He spent several years training to be a labor historian, which carries rhetorical weight with me but I don't know how to actually assess what he's doing. He's got a piece that impressed my lay judgement called &quot;The myth of the artisan&quot; attacking the politics of claims about artisan labor by French socialist historians, that might be of interest to you.
take care,
Nate
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>That&#8217;s interesting Mark. Braudel&#8217;s on the infinite booklist, but I think I&#8217;m going to be less keen than you, due to some critical remarks I&#8217;ve read by Ranciere on him. As far as I can tell in my cursory reading Ranciere&#8217;s not a keen on social scientific historical facts. I&#8217;ll see if I can locate any e-copies of his relevant work. He spent several years training to be a labor historian, which carries rhetorical weight with me but I don&#8217;t know how to actually assess what he&#8217;s doing. He&#8217;s got a piece that impressed my lay judgement called &#8220;The myth of the artisan&#8221; attacking the politics of claims about artisan labor by French socialist historians, that might be of interest to you.<br />
take care,<br />
Nate
</p>
]]></content:encoded>
				</item>
</channel>
</rss>
