Comments on: … is happening in the history of slavery? http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/ A working notebook Tue, 15 Dec 2009 06:20:00 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha by: Nate http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2548 Wed, 07 May 2008 22:13:29 +0100 http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2548 More stuff on slavery: http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/12/13/was-american-slavery/ More stuff on slavery:
http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/12/13/was-american-slavery/

]]> by: Januaries http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2353 Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:49:07 +0000 http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2353 Thanks, Nate :-) And good luck catching that bus. Thanks, Nate :-) And good luck catching that bus.

]]> by: Nate http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2352 Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:43:10 +0000 http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2352 hey Januaries, I think I understood you, I didn't take you to be attacking marxism or anything like that. I think it's a good point you make, actually, and I can relate to some of what you describe. As you say, words get slippery. One of the things I've encountered at least as often as bad anti-marxism - mistaken disagreements - is bad pro-marxism, where people who are marxists think because I'm a marxist that therefore I agree with them. That's my point about types/traditions in marxism. I'm drawn (among other things) to anti-bolshevik traditions in marxism, to libertarian marxisms and marxisms that look more like anarchism, and to anarchists who make a lot of use of marx/marxism (the last is really where I'm at). When people are like "oh you're a marxist too, you must be for X other thing just like I am" it can be pretty awkward and annoying, and create even worse misunderstandings than straight forward disagreements. Gotta run, need to catch a bus. take care, Nate hey Januaries,
I think I understood you, I didn’t take you to be attacking marxism or anything like that. I think it’s a good point you make, actually, and I can relate to some of what you describe. As you say, words get slippery. One of the things I’ve encountered at least as often as bad anti-marxism - mistaken disagreements - is bad pro-marxism, where people who are marxists think because I’m a marxist that therefore I agree with them. That’s my point about types/traditions in marxism. I’m drawn (among other things) to anti-bolshevik traditions in marxism, to libertarian marxisms and marxisms that look more like anarchism, and to anarchists who make a lot of use of marx/marxism (the last is really where I’m at). When people are like “oh you’re a marxist too, you must be for X other thing just like I am” it can be pretty awkward and annoying, and create even worse misunderstandings than straight forward disagreements.
Gotta run, need to catch a bus.
take care,
Nate

]]> by: Januaries http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2351 Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:27:38 +0000 http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2351 That is true. I am not writing against Marxism. If I'm writing against anything, it's binary oppositions. I'm not sure I was able to get my thoughts across. Marxism didn't lose validity through the existence of communist totalitarianism. What was excised from post-communist academia was the bowdlerized version of Marxism propagated by the former authorities. Historical materialism is doing quite well. But I guess we are using the label "marxism" with added restraint. And we (I don't like using the "we," because exceptions always exist... but I think I know enough about the situation to generalize) tend to be cautious about how Marxism is often romanticized in American academia. This is not about you and Todd. I know too little about your take on Marxism. This is just an observation about how certain words and ideas behind them become slippery for some people so that they neither embrace nor reject them. That is true. I am not writing against Marxism. If I’m writing against anything, it’s binary oppositions.

I’m not sure I was able to get my thoughts across. Marxism didn’t lose validity through the existence of communist totalitarianism. What was excised from post-communist academia was the bowdlerized version of Marxism propagated by the former authorities. Historical materialism is doing quite well. But I guess we are using the label “marxism” with added restraint. And we (I don’t like using the “we,” because exceptions always exist… but I think I know enough about the situation to generalize) tend to be cautious about how Marxism is often romanticized in American academia. This is not about you and Todd. I know too little about your take on Marxism. This is just an observation about how certain words and ideas behind them become slippery for some people so that they neither embrace nor reject them.

]]> by: Nate http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2348 Sat, 12 Jan 2008 12:49:09 +0000 http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2348 hey Januaries, I always approach this by being really clear and conceding a lot of the big points - the so-called communist countries are nothing I'm for etc. The stakes are different but there's also concerns re: the small political stuff that I've done and I bet the same is true for Todd - there's a number of groups in the US who claim the title 'marxist' for themselves and many of them - the vast majority, most likely - are groups that I don't want anything to do with, in their ideas and what they call for but even more in how they behave in relation to other groups and movements etc (being destructive or manipulative etc). With all of this, I stress that there have been many marxisms and regardless of some essence of marxism or what Marx really meant, there are some marxisms that I feel affinity with - those who never got on board with the bad parts of the tradition in ideas and/or actions - and folk who are opposed to the bad parts of marxism and decry its crimes should also be aware of those heterodox varieties of marxism. Among other reasons, because the heterodox marxists were among the people who suffered at the hands of the official marxists. take care, Nate hey Januaries,
I always approach this by being really clear and conceding a lot of the big points - the so-called communist countries are nothing I’m for etc. The stakes are different but there’s also concerns re: the small political stuff that I’ve done and I bet the same is true for Todd - there’s a number of groups in the US who claim the title ‘marxist’ for themselves and many of them - the vast majority, most likely - are groups that I don’t want anything to do with, in their ideas and what they call for but even more in how they behave in relation to other groups and movements etc (being destructive or manipulative etc). With all of this, I stress that there have been many marxisms and regardless of some essence of marxism or what Marx really meant, there are some marxisms that I feel affinity with - those who never got on board with the bad parts of the tradition in ideas and/or actions - and folk who are opposed to the bad parts of marxism and decry its crimes should also be aware of those heterodox varieties of marxism. Among other reasons, because the heterodox marxists were among the people who suffered at the hands of the official marxists.
take care,
Nate

]]> by: Januaries http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2344 Sat, 12 Jan 2008 07:09:29 +0000 http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2344 In response to comment #6 (and it's not that I'm missing the humor): It <i>is</i> complex. I still haven't figured out the way to explain how it is that for people from former communist states it's a bind. You wouldn't call yourself a Marxist, but you're not necessarily an enemy of the ideas. History weighs upon them, however. A history of facts but also of words and their usage (Bakhtin), that cannot be simply cut loose from the theory. This is irreducible and no discussions revolving around the argument "those guys hijacked marxism and under Trotsky (or whoever else) things would have been completely different" can change that. Marxism is thought dynamite -- with all the positive and negative potential. That's why I'm saying no to this kind of binary thinking. In response to comment #6 (and it’s not that I’m missing the humor): It is complex. I still haven’t figured out the way to explain how it is that for people from former communist states it’s a bind. You wouldn’t call yourself a Marxist, but you’re not necessarily an enemy of the ideas. History weighs upon them, however. A history of facts but also of words and their usage (Bakhtin), that cannot be simply cut loose from the theory. This is irreducible and no discussions revolving around the argument “those guys hijacked marxism and under Trotsky (or whoever else) things would have been completely different” can change that. Marxism is thought dynamite — with all the positive and negative potential. That’s why I’m saying no to this kind of binary thinking.

]]> by: Nate http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2186 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 17:09:54 +0000 http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2186 "Hate the sin, love the sinner," that's my motto. Along with "be prepared" and "you catch more flies with honey." “Hate the sin, love the sinner,” that’s my motto. Along with “be prepared” and “you catch more flies with honey.”

]]> by: todd http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2185 Sat, 24 Nov 2007 11:02:12 +0000 http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2185 quit making hating complex! either you're with marx or you're against! quit making hating complex! either you’re with marx or you’re against!

]]> by: Nate http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2180 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:05:20 +0000 http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2180 hey Adam, I meant to indicate, this is a survey solely of stuff on slavery in the US/colonies prior to (formal) emancipation. There's a ton of work on slavery elsewhere, on slavery as a global economy, etc, in a variety of areas. I don't know about any of that stuff so I can't speak to any of that. I know there's stuff in the UK on "slavery studies" that I think is pretty new, linking this type of history to contemporary stuff. That makes a ton of sense and is what this kind of scholarship should look like, but it's not what I read for this. The stuff I read for this was all by historians. For more on the contemporary stuff, which I'm not up on at all, see: http://www.freetheslaves.net http://www.antislavery.org/ http://www.hull.ac.uk/wise/index.html According to this - http://www.freetheslaves.net/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?pid=301&srcid=348 - there are 27 million people in slavery today, which is more than at any other time in history. take care, Nate hey Adam,

I meant to indicate, this is a survey solely of stuff on slavery in the US/colonies prior to (formal) emancipation. There’s a ton of work on slavery elsewhere, on slavery as a global economy, etc, in a variety of areas. I don’t know about any of that stuff so I can’t speak to any of that. I know there’s stuff in the UK on “slavery studies” that I think is pretty new, linking this type of history to contemporary stuff. That makes a ton of sense and is what this kind of scholarship should look like, but it’s not what I read for this. The stuff I read for this was all by historians.

For more on the contemporary stuff, which I’m not up on at all, see:
http://www.freetheslaves.net
http://www.antislavery.org/
http://www.hull.ac.uk/wise/index.html

According to this - http://www.freetheslaves.net/NETCOMMUNITY/Page.aspx?pid=301&srcid=348 - there are 27 million people in slavery today, which is more than at any other time in history.

take care,
Nate

]]> by: Adam W. http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2179 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:25:04 +0000 http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/11/20/is-happening-in-the-history-of-slavery/#comment-2179 I wasn't able to finished this, but what about the field of modern human slavery, sex trafficing, etc. I've heard here and there that numericaly there are more people facing conditions of forced labor/modern slavery than there were during these periods (though its proportionally smaller). Is this true? What is the field like on modern slavery and does it relate historical slavery studies? I wasn’t able to finished this, but what about the field of modern human slavery, sex trafficing, etc. I’ve heard here and there that numericaly there are more people facing conditions of forced labor/modern slavery than there were during these periods (though its proportionally smaller). Is this true? What is the field like on modern slavery and does it relate historical slavery studies?

]]>