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	<title>Comments on: &#8230; is the social factory?</title>
	<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/</link>
	<description>A working notebook</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 14 Oct 2008 05:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1864</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:33:38 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1864</guid>
					<description>&quot;The deeds I’m involved in are (...) often slow paced and not very gripping&quot;

As opposed to what I read, which is fast paced and totally gripping... *sigh*

Nothing I've read recently could be called either.

Except the newest Harry Potter. That was both. Ron dies, by the way. 

Just kidding about Ron.

Deadwood, now that's exciting and gripping. I don't read it though, I watch it on TV.

Seriously though, Ron dies. It's very sad. Also very impressive on Rowling's part, killing off a major character like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The deeds I’m involved in are (&#8230;) often slow paced and not very gripping&#8221;</p>
	<p>As opposed to what I read, which is fast paced and totally gripping&#8230; *sigh*</p>
	<p>Nothing I&#8217;ve read recently could be called either.</p>
	<p>Except the newest Harry Potter. That was both. Ron dies, by the way. </p>
	<p>Just kidding about Ron.</p>
	<p>Deadwood, now that&#8217;s exciting and gripping. I don&#8217;t read it though, I watch it on TV.</p>
	<p>Seriously though, Ron dies. It&#8217;s very sad. Also very impressive on Rowling&#8217;s part, killing off a major character like that.
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		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1863</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 18:27:03 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1863</guid>
					<description>hey there Per,
I agree about the politics of Rorty's philosophical work. I think his politics and his philosophical work are separable. One of the funny things reading him is that I think he's at his best when he's basically saying &quot;people say X therefore Y but Y is not entailed by X, people make this conversational move all the time and even if we're pro-Y that doesn't mean the move really holds up.&quot; But then he says basically &quot;pragmatism therefore social democracy&quot;, which is precisely a case of what he always talks about in his philosophical work. Put differently, I find his deflationary moves highly compelling and his positive assertions less than thrilling, to say the least. And I think his positive assertions are not entailed by his deflationary moves. 

I still read that other stuff. I have many hobbies. :) 

The deeds I'm involved in aren't what I want to blog about. First off cuz they're often slow paced and not very gripping, and second because some of them are connected to workplace organizing which is not yet public so that if I talk much about it folk could possibly get fired. Third off cuz this blog is mostly designed to help me jot down notes about what I've been reading lately, to get my brainjuices flowing a bit more than they would otherwise. 

take care,
Nate</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>hey there Per,<br />
I agree about the politics of Rorty&#8217;s philosophical work. I think his politics and his philosophical work are separable. One of the funny things reading him is that I think he&#8217;s at his best when he&#8217;s basically saying &#8220;people say X therefore Y but Y is not entailed by X, people make this conversational move all the time and even if we&#8217;re pro-Y that doesn&#8217;t mean the move really holds up.&#8221; But then he says basically &#8220;pragmatism therefore social democracy&#8221;, which is precisely a case of what he always talks about in his philosophical work. Put differently, I find his deflationary moves highly compelling and his positive assertions less than thrilling, to say the least. And I think his positive assertions are not entailed by his deflationary moves. </p>
	<p>I still read that other stuff. I have many hobbies. <img src='http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/wp-images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
	<p>The deeds I&#8217;m involved in aren&#8217;t what I want to blog about. First off cuz they&#8217;re often slow paced and not very gripping, and second because some of them are connected to workplace organizing which is not yet public so that if I talk much about it folk could possibly get fired. Third off cuz this blog is mostly designed to help me jot down notes about what I&#8217;ve been reading lately, to get my brainjuices flowing a bit more than they would otherwise. </p>
	<p>take care,<br />
Nate
</p>
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		<title>by: Perezoso</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1862</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:44:56 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1862</guid>
					<description>I don't see Rorty's programme so conducive to progressive politics, or, egads, intelligent anarchism. Methinx he was a bit more literatteur than philosophe (and really Quine's Two Dogmas, however powerful and cogently argued, serves opportunists of all stripes). And Rorty seemed to relish the Ivy League sage role.  Rorty's for the bureaucratic liberals, really; and even to the right of someone like Berty Russell, I believe. 

I think there are good grounds for arresting the entire faculty of Steinford (maybe the Biffs and Bunnies too): they Steinfordians are sort of the Cali vichy to the UC apparatchiks (with more than a few real nazis out in the sticks): and I don't think one has to be some wild-eyed marxist to understand that. What happened to Nate the appreciative reader of Malatesta, Bakunin, Makhno?  (Makhno not my fave, but interesting and tragic figure).  The Deed as well as the Idea, comrade. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t see Rorty&#8217;s programme so conducive to progressive politics, or, egads, intelligent anarchism. Methinx he was a bit more literatteur than philosophe (and really Quine&#8217;s Two Dogmas, however powerful and cogently argued, serves opportunists of all stripes). And Rorty seemed to relish the Ivy League sage role.  Rorty&#8217;s for the bureaucratic liberals, really; and even to the right of someone like Berty Russell, I believe. </p>
	<p>I think there are good grounds for arresting the entire faculty of Steinford (maybe the Biffs and Bunnies too): they Steinfordians are sort of the Cali vichy to the UC apparatchiks (with more than a few real nazis out in the sticks): and I don&#8217;t think one has to be some wild-eyed marxist to understand that. What happened to Nate the appreciative reader of Malatesta, Bakunin, Makhno?  (Makhno not my fave, but interesting and tragic figure).  The Deed as well as the Idea, comrade.
</p>
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		<title>by: Perezoso</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1861</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 11:44:25 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1861</guid>
					<description>I don't see Rorty's programme so conducive to progressive politics, or, egads, intelligent anarchism. Methinx he was a bit more literatteur than philosophe (and really Quine's Two Dogmas, however powerful and cogently argued, serves opportunists of all stripes). And Rorty seemed to relish the Ivy League sage role.  Rorty's for the bureaucratic liberals, really; and even to the right of someone like Berty Russell, I believe. 

I think there are good grounds for arresting the entire faculty of Steinford (maybe the Biffs and Bunnies too): they Steinfordians are sort of the Cali vichy to the UC apparatchiks (with more than a few real nazis out in the sticks): and I don't think one has to be some wild-eyed marxist to understand that. What happened to Nate the appreciative reader of Malatesta, Bakunin, Makhno?  (Makhno not my fave, but interesting and tragic figure).  The Deed as well as the Idea, comrade. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t see Rorty&#8217;s programme so conducive to progressive politics, or, egads, intelligent anarchism. Methinx he was a bit more literatteur than philosophe (and really Quine&#8217;s Two Dogmas, however powerful and cogently argued, serves opportunists of all stripes). And Rorty seemed to relish the Ivy League sage role.  Rorty&#8217;s for the bureaucratic liberals, really; and even to the right of someone like Berty Russell, I believe. </p>
	<p>I think there are good grounds for arresting the entire faculty of Steinford (maybe the Biffs and Bunnies too): they Steinfordians are sort of the Cali vichy to the UC apparatchiks (with more than a few real nazis out in the sticks): and I don&#8217;t think one has to be some wild-eyed marxist to understand that. What happened to Nate the appreciative reader of Malatesta, Bakunin, Makhno?  (Makhno not my fave, but interesting and tragic figure).  The Deed as well as the Idea, comrade.
</p>
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		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1853</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Aug 2007 15:44:59 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1853</guid>
					<description>I don't know enough about pragmatism, though I'm favorably disposed toward it. The thing with Rorty is that when he does philosophical work it's solidly argued and I think generally correct. I'm much less taken with his politics. His Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature is excellent as are the non-culture/politics essays in the four volumes of his Philosophical Papers. Rorty's pragmatism is well-founded in terms of arguments and addressing counter-arguments. I think he's definitely worth taking seriously. (Among other things he's an avid reader of Quine and Sellar.)
take care,
Nate</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t know enough about pragmatism, though I&#8217;m favorably disposed toward it. The thing with Rorty is that when he does philosophical work it&#8217;s solidly argued and I think generally correct. I&#8217;m much less taken with his politics. His Philosophy and the Mirror of Nature is excellent as are the non-culture/politics essays in the four volumes of his Philosophical Papers. Rorty&#8217;s pragmatism is well-founded in terms of arguments and addressing counter-arguments. I think he&#8217;s definitely worth taking seriously. (Among other things he&#8217;s an avid reader of Quine and Sellar.)<br />
take care,<br />
Nate
</p>
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		<title>by: Perezoso</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1850</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 22:42:37 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1850</guid>
					<description>I have concluded that I am anti-pragmatism, and that anti-pragmatism includes being opposed to the complex, leftist PC pragmatism of Rorty (tho' I need to study a bit more RR). Dewey may have been a decent gent, but the general trend of that school seems to be towards a sort of bureaucratic, touchy-feely behaviorism, though, yeah, better some Deweyans than Xtian-capitalists (or muslims, or jewish financiers for that matter). I would think that even moderate socialists would take issue with relativistic aspects of pragmatism, and Rorty's ideas, though in some circumstances pragmatic utility might be an important consideration (any examples I can think of right now would seem banal probably---medicines, or cures, for example.)  

I have Rorty's &quot;The Linguistic Turn&quot; (written a bit before his Pragmatic Turn), and it's a nice collection of ...gasp....analytical and language-related essays. Rorty was sort of a Carnapian early on, and I am one who still finds Carnapian ideas sort of interesting and applicable (as well as physicalist and secularist to the core), even if the &quot;anti-normative&quot; aspects of his writing might offend some PoMo's. RC's politics were quite progressive as well, supposedly, and he was not as snooty and conservative as most of the positivists.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have concluded that I am anti-pragmatism, and that anti-pragmatism includes being opposed to the complex, leftist PC pragmatism of Rorty (tho&#8217; I need to study a bit more RR). Dewey may have been a decent gent, but the general trend of that school seems to be towards a sort of bureaucratic, touchy-feely behaviorism, though, yeah, better some Deweyans than Xtian-capitalists (or muslims, or jewish financiers for that matter). I would think that even moderate socialists would take issue with relativistic aspects of pragmatism, and Rorty&#8217;s ideas, though in some circumstances pragmatic utility might be an important consideration (any examples I can think of right now would seem banal probably&#8212;medicines, or cures, for example.)  </p>
	<p>I have Rorty&#8217;s &#8220;The Linguistic Turn&#8221; (written a bit before his Pragmatic Turn), and it&#8217;s a nice collection of &#8230;gasp&#8230;.analytical and language-related essays. Rorty was sort of a Carnapian early on, and I am one who still finds Carnapian ideas sort of interesting and applicable (as well as physicalist and secularist to the core), even if the &#8220;anti-normative&#8221; aspects of his writing might offend some PoMo&#8217;s. RC&#8217;s politics were quite progressive as well, supposedly, and he was not as snooty and conservative as most of the positivists.
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		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1833</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2007 11:53:44 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1833</guid>
					<description>Ciao Per,
I don't think that's what Marx means at least in v1 of Capital. I think he means &quot;for the capitalist, here's what matters,&quot; because in v1 as I read him Marx is trying to hold up a sort of ideal type of capitalism, one where there are no problems that are incidental (incompetent manager, etc), in order to argue that there are problems inherent to capitalism, problems which can only be eliminated by ending capitalism. That 'necessary' labor is only that labor that is functional for profit - that is, that 'necessary' labor for the capitalists is not actually what is necessary to produce society - is one such problem. I think that a good society would probably have to deal with questions like that. I don't think Marx did very much (again not in v1 of Capital anyhow).
take care,
Nate

ps- on a different matter entirely, you read much Rorty? I imagine you won't agree with some of his main axes he likes to grind, but I think he's a skilled writer and argue-er. I just got his Philosophical Papers v4, I haven't read the first third but the latter two sections are quite good.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ciao Per,<br />
I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s what Marx means at least in v1 of Capital. I think he means &#8220;for the capitalist, here&#8217;s what matters,&#8221; because in v1 as I read him Marx is trying to hold up a sort of ideal type of capitalism, one where there are no problems that are incidental (incompetent manager, etc), in order to argue that there are problems inherent to capitalism, problems which can only be eliminated by ending capitalism. That &#8216;necessary&#8217; labor is only that labor that is functional for profit - that is, that &#8216;necessary&#8217; labor for the capitalists is not actually what is necessary to produce society - is one such problem. I think that a good society would probably have to deal with questions like that. I don&#8217;t think Marx did very much (again not in v1 of Capital anyhow).<br />
take care,<br />
Nate</p>
	<p>ps- on a different matter entirely, you read much Rorty? I imagine you won&#8217;t agree with some of his main axes he likes to grind, but I think he&#8217;s a skilled writer and argue-er. I just got his Philosophical Papers v4, I haven&#8217;t read the first third but the latter two sections are quite good.
</p>
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		<title>by: Perezoso</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1828</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 15:42:28 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1828</guid>
					<description>Like other non-marxist readers of Marx, I believe there is a normative or at least evaluative aspect to &quot;social necessary labor.&quot; The term itself suggests a type of aggregation, as the econ. boys say. Marx hisself does not provide any clear and distinct definition of SN Labor.  My own sense is that he was saying that under capitalism, some forms of labor were necessary to society---but that the market results in situations that create various parasitical sorts of work or exploitation (perhaps &quot;hedonistic,&quot; say like liquor, shopping malls,  or entertainment, etc.) or the making of vanities (luxury items, etc) for the wealthy and bourgeois consumer. Under real socialism,  many of these parasitical forms of labor would be removed, as would the parasites of finance, and various management related occupations. S.N. labor thus has some relation to the division of labor issues.  At the very least socially necessary labor needs some definition . </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Like other non-marxist readers of Marx, I believe there is a normative or at least evaluative aspect to &#8220;social necessary labor.&#8221; The term itself suggests a type of aggregation, as the econ. boys say. Marx hisself does not provide any clear and distinct definition of SN Labor.  My own sense is that he was saying that under capitalism, some forms of labor were necessary to society&#8212;but that the market results in situations that create various parasitical sorts of work or exploitation (perhaps &#8220;hedonistic,&#8221; say like liquor, shopping malls,  or entertainment, etc.) or the making of vanities (luxury items, etc) for the wealthy and bourgeois consumer. Under real socialism,  many of these parasitical forms of labor would be removed, as would the parasites of finance, and various management related occupations. S.N. labor thus has some relation to the division of labor issues.  At the very least socially necessary labor needs some definition .
</p>
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		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1827</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 14:41:41 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1827</guid>
					<description>I don't agree about the more work thing - manual vs mental etc - and about meritocracy. I will concede that some labor is more important than other labor, though. For instance, I think people who work in hospitals (the people who do direct care and facilitate care, I'd include janitors in this, but not the people in billing etc) do some of the most important and good work there is. 

Also, FWIW for Marx 'socially necessary labor' isn't the labor that's ... necessary for producing a society. It's the remunerated labor against which surplus value is measured. The capitalist wants to reduce (what counts as) that labor by cutting wages/making work unpaid/making labor more productive so as to get a higher product to wages cost ratio etc. 

I will say that I recognize that greater unionization in one sector may well raise costs to consumers of products from that sector, which is a genuine difficulty that has to be navigated and is why support for organizing across unions and sectors is important. The thing is, it's not the unions but the bosses that do that, pass that cost along in order to maintain profits. In the longterm eliminating bosses (the social position of bosses) will eliminate that happening. In the short term, it's all a matter of power really. The janitors have decent pay because they organized and they fought their employers and they won. It's management that decides pay and conditions and benefits, with the collective power of labor being something that shapes that decision-making process. If management's paying the teachers poorly the fault is management's, not the fault of the janitors who fought to make management pay them better. 

take it easy,
Nate
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t agree about the more work thing - manual vs mental etc - and about meritocracy. I will concede that some labor is more important than other labor, though. For instance, I think people who work in hospitals (the people who do direct care and facilitate care, I&#8217;d include janitors in this, but not the people in billing etc) do some of the most important and good work there is. </p>
	<p>Also, FWIW for Marx &#8217;socially necessary labor&#8217; isn&#8217;t the labor that&#8217;s &#8230; necessary for producing a society. It&#8217;s the remunerated labor against which surplus value is measured. The capitalist wants to reduce (what counts as) that labor by cutting wages/making work unpaid/making labor more productive so as to get a higher product to wages cost ratio etc. </p>
	<p>I will say that I recognize that greater unionization in one sector may well raise costs to consumers of products from that sector, which is a genuine difficulty that has to be navigated and is why support for organizing across unions and sectors is important. The thing is, it&#8217;s not the unions but the bosses that do that, pass that cost along in order to maintain profits. In the longterm eliminating bosses (the social position of bosses) will eliminate that happening. In the short term, it&#8217;s all a matter of power really. The janitors have decent pay because they organized and they fought their employers and they won. It&#8217;s management that decides pay and conditions and benefits, with the collective power of labor being something that shapes that decision-making process. If management&#8217;s paying the teachers poorly the fault is management&#8217;s, not the fault of the janitors who fought to make management pay them better. </p>
	<p>take it easy,<br />
Nate
</p>
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		<title>by: Perezoso</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1825</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2007 11:16:14 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/15/is-the-social-factory/#comment-1825</guid>
					<description>&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;The answer to those is not take things away from this or that section of the working class, but increase the standing of the sections which are less privileged, an increase to come at the expense of capitalists. &quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;

OK, Sir. Well-stated, yet that has happened to a large extent, at least in California. Custodians for instance have a large and powerful union. In some school districts the custodians, maintenance, etc. are earning at least as much as teachers and admins. And teachers, or new teachers are struggling. Another complex situation (&quot;stratified,&quot; I guess), but I wager some people might take issue with custodians making the same as educators (or nurses paid the same as doctors). This relates back to that noble marxist concept of &quot;socially necessary labor.&quot; The math teacher's work, I assert, produces more social value than does the custodian's work, however bleak that might sound. Building good bridges, or even good computer programs requires more real work, intellectual speaking, than does cleaning the bathrooms or cooking the burgers at Squeaky Fromme HS.  So some type of compensation or meritocracy system would seem to be required (and it was with soviets as well: engineers had nice dachas or better cars compared to assemblers, etc.).  Complete egalitarianism seems more maoist than marxist; implementing that sort of maoist communism cost millions of lives, however admirable the comrades' intentions were. Regardless I agree, that capitalists should pay in a sense, but would limit that to upper-middle class and very wealthy. But that &quot;retaliation&quot; could be enacted via radical reforms, sort of economic distribution laws, instead of, well, riots: it's just that few have the spine to say hold a gat to Harry Reid and Co..........</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;&#8221;"&#8221;The answer to those is not take things away from this or that section of the working class, but increase the standing of the sections which are less privileged, an increase to come at the expense of capitalists. &#8220;&#8221;"&#8221;</p>
	<p>OK, Sir. Well-stated, yet that has happened to a large extent, at least in California. Custodians for instance have a large and powerful union. In some school districts the custodians, maintenance, etc. are earning at least as much as teachers and admins. And teachers, or new teachers are struggling. Another complex situation (&#8221;stratified,&#8221; I guess), but I wager some people might take issue with custodians making the same as educators (or nurses paid the same as doctors). This relates back to that noble marxist concept of &#8220;socially necessary labor.&#8221; The math teacher&#8217;s work, I assert, produces more social value than does the custodian&#8217;s work, however bleak that might sound. Building good bridges, or even good computer programs requires more real work, intellectual speaking, than does cleaning the bathrooms or cooking the burgers at Squeaky Fromme HS.  So some type of compensation or meritocracy system would seem to be required (and it was with soviets as well: engineers had nice dachas or better cars compared to assemblers, etc.).  Complete egalitarianism seems more maoist than marxist; implementing that sort of maoist communism cost millions of lives, however admirable the comrades&#8217; intentions were. Regardless I agree, that capitalists should pay in a sense, but would limit that to upper-middle class and very wealthy. But that &#8220;retaliation&#8221; could be enacted via radical reforms, sort of economic distribution laws, instead of, well, riots: it&#8217;s just that few have the spine to say hold a gat to Harry Reid and Co&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.
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