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	<title>Comments on: &#8230; is Marx on about now?</title>
	<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/12/is-marx-on-about-now/</link>
	<description>A working notebook</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 06:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Perezoso</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/12/is-marx-on-about-now/#comment-1790</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 13:45:51 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/12/is-marx-on-about-now/#comment-1790</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;Marx is inconsistent in his use of the term ‘co-operation,’ as he refers to it existing in ancient societies. He also makes a move from “didn’t” to “couldn’t” of the sort I commented on in my post on his comments on Aristotle, “the capitalist mode of production presents itself to us historically, as a necessary condition to the transformation of the labour-process into a social process.” All quotes thus far are from the Moore and Aveling translation. In the Fowkes translation, it doesn’t say “presents itself to us”, it says “is,” capitalism _is_ necessary. That’s false or at least unverifiable and a pointless utterance. Moore and Aveling’s “presents itself (…) as” allows a reading which would criticize the capitalist self-presentation along the lines of Marx’s criticisms of the capitalist (and/or classical political economy) myth analogous to the story of the fall. (Note to self, check the German.)&quot;&quot;&quot;&quot;

Interesting analysis, and rather important qualification (translation always an issue--especially for German, that damned tongue). The use of &quot;necessary&quot; with any sort of inductive study (whether economics, or a critique of economics), or the copula itself (this IS that, so identity in a sense) should not be accepted blithely (--should it?) The strength of orthodox marxism was due largely to the empiricism, and historical and economic data. When the discussion drifts from data to Dogma, most of us non-Par-tay members have reason to be afraid.  However trite the D. word izz at this stage (apres-Popper), the Bolsheviks certainly were willing to dispense with the history and economic discussions of Marx and Engels (as even those shadowy narratives of Makhno indicate).  Marx was, I believe, a proto-econometrician, more or less, and certainly aspired to the objectivity of the sciences, and to a quantitative economics: contemporary leftists--and postmods---often seem to lose sight of that objective, descriptive aspect of KM's writings--though that objectivity is not ALWAYS evident.

The use of &quot;social&quot; itself presents certain shall we say semantic, or, possibly metaphysical difficulties (in some sense Marxist analysis always relates to the problem of determinism, and I think he deliberately avoids it, as he deliberately avoids say taking on Kant). &lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;&#8221;"&#8221;Marx is inconsistent in his use of the term ‘co-operation,’ as he refers to it existing in ancient societies. He also makes a move from “didn’t” to “couldn’t” of the sort I commented on in my post on his comments on Aristotle, “the capitalist mode of production presents itself to us historically, as a necessary condition to the transformation of the labour-process into a social process.” All quotes thus far are from the Moore and Aveling translation. In the Fowkes translation, it doesn’t say “presents itself to us”, it says “is,” capitalism _is_ necessary. That’s false or at least unverifiable and a pointless utterance. Moore and Aveling’s “presents itself (…) as” allows a reading which would criticize the capitalist self-presentation along the lines of Marx’s criticisms of the capitalist (and/or classical political economy) myth analogous to the story of the fall. (Note to self, check the German.)&#8221;"&#8221;"</p>
	<p>Interesting analysis, and rather important qualification (translation always an issue&#8211;especially for German, that damned tongue). The use of &#8220;necessary&#8221; with any sort of inductive study (whether economics, or a critique of economics), or the copula itself (this IS that, so identity in a sense) should not be accepted blithely (&#8211;should it?) The strength of orthodox marxism was due largely to the empiricism, and historical and economic data. When the discussion drifts from data to Dogma, most of us non-Par-tay members have reason to be afraid.  However trite the D. word izz at this stage (apres-Popper), the Bolsheviks certainly were willing to dispense with the history and economic discussions of Marx and Engels (as even those shadowy narratives of Makhno indicate).  Marx was, I believe, a proto-econometrician, more or less, and certainly aspired to the objectivity of the sciences, and to a quantitative economics: contemporary leftists&#8211;and postmods&#8212;often seem to lose sight of that objective, descriptive aspect of KM&#8217;s writings&#8211;though that objectivity is not ALWAYS evident.</p>
	<p>The use of &#8220;social&#8221; itself presents certain shall we say semantic, or, possibly metaphysical difficulties (in some sense Marxist analysis always relates to the problem of determinism, and I think he deliberately avoids it, as he deliberately avoids say taking on Kant). </i>
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		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/12/is-marx-on-about-now/#comment-1789</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 08:46:01 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/12/is-marx-on-about-now/#comment-1789</guid>
					<description>hi Steve,
Good to hear from you (and sorry I'm in such infrequent contact these days). I think I saw a version of that essay before the Commoner came out, I know I read something by him on the subject, but I haven't downloaded any of the new issue yet. I'd be keen to hear what you think after you get a chance to look at the cooperation chapter. I know this is old news to you and me, but it's striking how much of an orthodox marxist Negri is about that sort of stuff (and not in a good way). 
take care,
Nate</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>hi Steve,<br />
Good to hear from you (and sorry I&#8217;m in such infrequent contact these days). I think I saw a version of that essay before the Commoner came out, I know I read something by him on the subject, but I haven&#8217;t downloaded any of the new issue yet. I&#8217;d be keen to hear what you think after you get a chance to look at the cooperation chapter. I know this is old news to you and me, but it&#8217;s striking how much of an orthodox marxist Negri is about that sort of stuff (and not in a good way).<br />
take care,<br />
Nate
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		<title>by: Steve</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/12/is-marx-on-about-now/#comment-1787</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jul 2007 07:18:31 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2007/07/12/is-marx-on-about-now/#comment-1787</guid>
					<description>Have you had a chance to look at Max Tomba's article in the latest Commoner? His critique of the periodisation that follows from the common use of formal and real subsumption is quite apposite IMO. As for Marx on cooperation, I'll go back and look over the passages you discuss. Certainly what Negri sees as some of the distinctive features of immaterial labour seems to forget Marx's argument about cooperation under capital's rule ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Have you had a chance to look at Max Tomba&#8217;s article in the latest Commoner? His critique of the periodisation that follows from the common use of formal and real subsumption is quite apposite IMO. As for Marx on cooperation, I&#8217;ll go back and look over the passages you discuss. Certainly what Negri sees as some of the distinctive features of immaterial labour seems to forget Marx&#8217;s argument about cooperation under capital&#8217;s rule &#8230;
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