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	<title>Comments on: &#8230; is the &#8216;primitive&#8217; in primitive accumulation?</title>
	<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/</link>
	<description>A working notebook</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 12:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-951</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Oct 2006 14:10:55 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-951</guid>
					<description>Thanks Craig. I've read chunks of the history-for-life one but not closely. I'll give those look when I can. 
take care,
Nate</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks Craig. I&#8217;ve read chunks of the history-for-life one but not closely. I&#8217;ll give those look when I can.<br />
take care,<br />
Nate
</p>
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		<title>by: Craig</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-950</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Oct 2006 22:47:05 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-950</guid>
					<description>Foucault gives most of the necessary references, but, generally, &lt;i&gt;Genealogy of Morality&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;Advantages and Disadvantages of History for Life&lt;/i&gt;.  It's an idea; the paper, that is. I'm certainly interested in the idea of the primitive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Foucault gives most of the necessary references, but, generally, <i>Genealogy of Morality</i> and <i>Advantages and Disadvantages of History for Life</i>.  It&#8217;s an idea; the paper, that is. I&#8217;m certainly interested in the idea of the primitive.
</p>
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		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-949</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Oct 2006 22:32:52 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-949</guid>
					<description>Thanks Craig. Maybe we could co-write it. I think I've got that Foucault piece somewhere and have read it, but I'm not 100%. Any recommendations on stuff to read on this by Nietzche? I don't know him at all. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks Craig. Maybe we could co-write it. I think I&#8217;ve got that Foucault piece somewhere and have read it, but I&#8217;m not 100%. Any recommendations on stuff to read on this by Nietzche? I don&#8217;t know him at all.
</p>
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		<title>by: Craig</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-948</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Oct 2006 21:04:42 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-948</guid>
					<description>Nietzsche is, of course, the theorist of the ursprung. Foucault comments extensively on the concept in &quot;Nietzsche, Genealogy, History.&quot; Likely a paper there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Nietzsche is, of course, the theorist of the ursprung. Foucault comments extensively on the concept in &#8220;Nietzsche, Genealogy, History.&#8221; Likely a paper there.
</p>
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		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-946</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 21:53:45 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-946</guid>
					<description>heya Henrik,

Thanks for that. I'll have to think more about this. Jason Read has a good discussion of this in his book. I haven't looked at that in a while, I should do that again. Werner Bonefeld argues (it's in the title of his paper actually) that primitive accumulation is not primite but something else, in his contribution to the Commoner debate on primitive accumulation, here 

http://www.commoner.org.uk/#dEbAtE:%20on%20primitive%20accumulation.

That's another one I need to look over again. So much to do... I think the point that capitalism was not born of virtuous savings by the (proto)capitalists is really important, as is the point that the blood and fire did not have a fore-ordained outcome. I have to run, more later...
take care,
Nate
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>heya Henrik,</p>
	<p>Thanks for that. I&#8217;ll have to think more about this. Jason Read has a good discussion of this in his book. I haven&#8217;t looked at that in a while, I should do that again. Werner Bonefeld argues (it&#8217;s in the title of his paper actually) that primitive accumulation is not primite but something else, in his contribution to the Commoner debate on primitive accumulation, here </p>
	<p><a href='http://www.commoner.org.uk/#dEbAtE:%20on%20primitive%20accumulation' rel='nofollow'>http://www.commoner.org.uk/#dEbAtE:%20on%20primitive%20accumulation</a>.</p>
	<p>That&#8217;s another one I need to look over again. So much to do&#8230; I think the point that capitalism was not born of virtuous savings by the (proto)capitalists is really important, as is the point that the blood and fire did not have a fore-ordained outcome. I have to run, more later&#8230;<br />
take care,<br />
Nate
</p>
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		<title>by: husk</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-945</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 21:35:34 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-945</guid>
					<description>Hello Nate,

The question of how to interpret “primitive” in primitive accumulation is a very important issue, both in terms of translation and theory. One important thing to note is that Marx’ German text does not read “primitive Ackumulation”, even though it could have. Instead Marx speaks of “die [i]sogennante[/i] ursprunglische Ackumulation”. Rendering “ursprunglische” in English is a problem (in general, there seems to be lots of problems translating German into English), and it seems to me that originary is a better option than primitive. Since my native language is not English (its Swedish) I’m obviously on thin ice here, but I have the feeling that the etymological root of primitive (which stems from the greek [i]proton[/i]) has become considerably obscured by its more upfront present day meaning of “unevolved” or “uncultured” (correct me if I’m wrong!). Maybe it is because these kinds of characteristics are attributed to Ackumulation the very first part of Marx’ phrase often is forgotten or at least not paid very much attention to? What I’m thinking about here is of course the [i]sogennante[/i], or [i]so-called[/i], part of die [i]sogennante[/i] ursprunglische Ackumulation. When Marx speaks about this, he doesn’t speak of the violent exproriations of land etc., at least not in an immediate way. Die sogennante ursprunglische Ackumulation rather denotes the myth of the industrious Ur-bourgeois (homo oeconomicus) who by saving and maximizing the utilization of his scarce means one day had gathered enough to have another man work for him and so forth. Obviously Marx’ point is that capitalism as social system did not emerge this way, but in lots of blood and gore. I’m not entirely sure what I wanted to say with all of this, but it seems like rendering ursprunglische as primitive blocks out the ideology-critical dimension of the sogennante when primitive accumulation is used to denote the immediate expropriation of land, enclosure of commons etc. Does this make any sense?

/Henrik
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hello Nate,</p>
	<p>The question of how to interpret “primitive” in primitive accumulation is a very important issue, both in terms of translation and theory. One important thing to note is that Marx’ German text does not read “primitive Ackumulation”, even though it could have. Instead Marx speaks of “die [i]sogennante[/i] ursprunglische Ackumulation”. Rendering “ursprunglische” in English is a problem (in general, there seems to be lots of problems translating German into English), and it seems to me that originary is a better option than primitive. Since my native language is not English (its Swedish) I’m obviously on thin ice here, but I have the feeling that the etymological root of primitive (which stems from the greek [i]proton[/i]) has become considerably obscured by its more upfront present day meaning of “unevolved” or “uncultured” (correct me if I’m wrong!). Maybe it is because these kinds of characteristics are attributed to Ackumulation the very first part of Marx’ phrase often is forgotten or at least not paid very much attention to? What I’m thinking about here is of course the [i]sogennante[/i], or [i]so-called[/i], part of die [i]sogennante[/i] ursprunglische Ackumulation. When Marx speaks about this, he doesn’t speak of the violent exproriations of land etc., at least not in an immediate way. Die sogennante ursprunglische Ackumulation rather denotes the myth of the industrious Ur-bourgeois (homo oeconomicus) who by saving and maximizing the utilization of his scarce means one day had gathered enough to have another man work for him and so forth. Obviously Marx’ point is that capitalism as social system did not emerge this way, but in lots of blood and gore. I’m not entirely sure what I wanted to say with all of this, but it seems like rendering ursprunglische as primitive blocks out the ideology-critical dimension of the sogennante when primitive accumulation is used to denote the immediate expropriation of land, enclosure of commons etc. Does this make any sense?</p>
	<p>/Henrik
</p>
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		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-944</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Oct 2006 00:50:59 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-944</guid>
					<description>hey Craig,
That's really helpful, thanks much. I missed this comment somehow so sorry for not replying sooner. I'm in a rush just now but I'll respond more later. 
take care,
Nate</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>hey Craig,<br />
That&#8217;s really helpful, thanks much. I missed this comment somehow so sorry for not replying sooner. I&#8217;m in a rush just now but I&#8217;ll respond more later.<br />
take care,<br />
Nate
</p>
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		<title>by: Craig</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-941</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Sep 2006 21:28:00 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-941</guid>
					<description>Whether he understands it as legal/juridical or ontological, is, you're right, not entirely clear. I think it, like biopolitics, is ontological for him because he seems to locate homo sacer in all possible legal orders. Insofar as your argument is concerned, you might consider browsing the 1844 Manuscripts, Marx tends to speak in a theological language referring to sacrality and sacrifice. I'm not much of a marxologist, so I'm not sure if anyone has written on this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Whether he understands it as legal/juridical or ontological, is, you&#8217;re right, not entirely clear. I think it, like biopolitics, is ontological for him because he seems to locate homo sacer in all possible legal orders. Insofar as your argument is concerned, you might consider browsing the 1844 Manuscripts, Marx tends to speak in a theological language referring to sacrality and sacrifice. I&#8217;m not much of a marxologist, so I&#8217;m not sure if anyone has written on this.
</p>
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		<title>by: Nate</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-936</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Sep 2006 23:27:03 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-936</guid>
					<description>hi Craig, 
I just downloaded the PDF and will read it soon-ish. Re: Agamben I've always thought Agamben to equivocate as to whether the category is legal and historical or ontological. As an ontological category it's simply bad, but then I'm not much on ontology generally, and it makes his remarks on Schmitt much weirder.

You're right on the vogelfreie as a type of bare life. The argument I want to make actually aims against the concept of bare life as such, in its bareness. Bare life is not really bare, for itself. It's bare life for the sovereign. In the same way, the proletariat is not free of all qualities and differentiations, being simply a bearer of abtract power to work. Rather, the buyers of labor power are indifferent to most of the other determinations of the proletariat and they seek to eliminate many of the determinations they are aware of (such as any involving self-organization against capital). Agamben gives a pretty good critical account of some operations of some examples of power, but because he doesn't acknowledge that his work is one-sided in terms of perspective (essentially it's a top down or *ahem* bird's eye view) that doesn't allow much room in his work for discussing the non-bareness of those who fall under the reference of the term bare life. It also means that phenomena like the Warsaw ghetto uprising etc are totally inexplicable in Agambenian categories (hence the relative vacuousness [sp?] of his remarks on Tiananmen Square, despite that incident serving as an example in an otherwise interesting piece).

The reason I like vogelfreie as an avenue into this, other than that it comes from Marx and I just kinda like Marx, is that the bird metaphor implies a power despite the condition of being destitute, a power of flight. Fowkes' translation as 'free and rightless' loses this resonance in a way which is common throughout much of marxism, taking the proletariat as primarily an object. Which reminds me, I have to check what the translation is in the Moore and Aveling.
take care,
Nate</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>hi Craig,<br />
I just downloaded the PDF and will read it soon-ish. Re: Agamben I&#8217;ve always thought Agamben to equivocate as to whether the category is legal and historical or ontological. As an ontological category it&#8217;s simply bad, but then I&#8217;m not much on ontology generally, and it makes his remarks on Schmitt much weirder.</p>
	<p>You&#8217;re right on the vogelfreie as a type of bare life. The argument I want to make actually aims against the concept of bare life as such, in its bareness. Bare life is not really bare, for itself. It&#8217;s bare life for the sovereign. In the same way, the proletariat is not free of all qualities and differentiations, being simply a bearer of abtract power to work. Rather, the buyers of labor power are indifferent to most of the other determinations of the proletariat and they seek to eliminate many of the determinations they are aware of (such as any involving self-organization against capital). Agamben gives a pretty good critical account of some operations of some examples of power, but because he doesn&#8217;t acknowledge that his work is one-sided in terms of perspective (essentially it&#8217;s a top down or *ahem* bird&#8217;s eye view) that doesn&#8217;t allow much room in his work for discussing the non-bareness of those who fall under the reference of the term bare life. It also means that phenomena like the Warsaw ghetto uprising etc are totally inexplicable in Agambenian categories (hence the relative vacuousness [sp?] of his remarks on Tiananmen Square, despite that incident serving as an example in an otherwise interesting piece).</p>
	<p>The reason I like vogelfreie as an avenue into this, other than that it comes from Marx and I just kinda like Marx, is that the bird metaphor implies a power despite the condition of being destitute, a power of flight. Fowkes&#8217; translation as &#8216;free and rightless&#8217; loses this resonance in a way which is common throughout much of marxism, taking the proletariat as primarily an object. Which reminds me, I have to check what the translation is in the Moore and Aveling.<br />
take care,<br />
Nate
</p>
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		<title>by: Craig</title>
		<link>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-935</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:28:51 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://whatinthehell.blogsome.com/2006/09/25/is-the-primitive-in-primitive-accumulation/#comment-935</guid>
					<description>I haven't read that book yet, but plan to - one day. The proposal isn't that interesting and, as Angela notes, it is written in occasionally coded language in reference to conversations between myself and my committee. The bibliography is decent, at least. Part of the important difference, I think, between Marx and Agamben is that &quot;vogelfreie&quot; are a historical concept whereas &quot;bare life&quot; is a metaphysical or ontological concept for Agamben. Isn't it more likely the case that the &quot;vogelfreie&quot; are a type of bare life? The proletarians, afterall, didn't exist until there was capitalism - the whole point of Marx's discussion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I haven&#8217;t read that book yet, but plan to - one day. The proposal isn&#8217;t that interesting and, as Angela notes, it is written in occasionally coded language in reference to conversations between myself and my committee. The bibliography is decent, at least. Part of the important difference, I think, between Marx and Agamben is that &#8220;vogelfreie&#8221; are a historical concept whereas &#8220;bare life&#8221; is a metaphysical or ontological concept for Agamben. Isn&#8217;t it more likely the case that the &#8220;vogelfreie&#8221; are a type of bare life? The proletarians, afterall, didn&#8217;t exist until there was capitalism - the whole point of Marx&#8217;s discussion.
</p>
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